GangBox Comments About Todays Court Proceedings

Reading from Bottom up, GangBox comments about today's court proceedings.
6 Apr 11, 17:10 dc reporter: i would like know how much money is due to dc from delinquent contributions. 6 Apr 11, 17:08 ROVING SECURITY: GUNDECK THE READINGS ! 6 Apr 11, 17:07 dc reporter: scanning technology: we know potential upside, what are the concerns? 6 Apr 11, 17:04 court: scumboy, sorry 6 Apr 11, 17:04 court: I think that sumboy is more appropriate 6 Apr 11, 17:01 listman: How can a man once presumably on the right side of the law take any amount of dollars to preform his, (what I envision may once may have been esteemed) services to a ruthless, self centered, Union leader ! 6 Apr 11, 16:57 listman: Conboy was also poushing for appointed eboards
6 Apr 11, 16:57 listman: Conboy says most crime was committeed @ the jobsite, No way McCarron U can not lie to a Fed Judge and expect to be held credible !
6 Apr 11, 16:53 Gundecking: Is scanning technology infallible ?
6 Apr 11, 16:46 R L: I would like to thank all the members who were at the courthouse today it sounds like it went well for the rank &file I look forward to seeing everyone on the 13th.
6 Apr 11, 16:40 Bill Lebo: going to eat catch you later
6 Apr 11, 16:39 Donny Arana: Build it big and the people will come
6 Apr 11, 16:37 Donny Arana: I know it did
6 Apr 11, 16:37 Bill Lebo: I want to see how he answers the Harrington issue
6 Apr 11, 16:37 Bill Lebo: I hope so Donny But I think it did
6 Apr 11, 16:36 Donny Arana: Bill. I think your letter opened the mind of judge berman to understand the members better today,and the need for their input.
6 Apr 11, 16:35 Bill Lebo: yep
6 Apr 11, 16:35 Pat Nee: I hope he does allow mail ins causing mccarron to have a heart attack
6 Apr 11, 16:35 Bill Lebo: Oh I'm sure he took it in and wanted to see how the members reacted.
6 Apr 11, 16:34 Bill Lebo: Pat if the Judge says mail in its mail in I hope McCarron has a heart attack over it
6 Apr 11, 16:34 Pat Nee: on allowing applause
6 Apr 11, 16:33 Pat Nee: I think the Judge is mindful that we have been put through the ringer and recognized that it was not meant disrespectfully
6 Apr 11, 16:32 Bill Lebo: I loved when Gene Clarke told the Judge about McCarron and Paschal and wanted McCarron to sign Dennis's LCN papers
6 Apr 11, 16:31 Pat Nee: Write-in votes shall neither be authorized nor permitted in the election of Officers or delegates in any Local Union, District, Industrial, Regional, State or Provincial Council.
6 Apr 11, 16:31 dc reporter: Did conboy suggest the debate of the 50/50 be suspended, you know the "meddlesome issue" as he call it till ..............................
6 Apr 11, 16:30 Bill Lebo: Judge Haight didn't
6 Apr 11, 16:29 Bill Lebo: I was surprised the Judge allowed applause
6 Apr 11, 16:29 Bill Lebo: everyone did
6 Apr 11, 16:29 Bill Lebo: Mike did a great job today
6 Apr 11, 16:28 Bill Lebo: they won't be allowed to stall
6 Apr 11, 16:28 Bill Lebo: what's not permissible
6 Apr 11, 16:28 dc reporter: Brother Bilello made an excellent point by connecting locals, delegates, and the ELECTION. they need to hurry and get their paperwork in.
6 Apr 11, 16:27 Donny Arana: Ubc
6 Apr 11, 16:27 Bill Lebo: yea he's full of ****
6 Apr 11, 16:27 Donny Arana: Inc looked like a rat in cage today.
6 Apr 11, 16:27 Pat Nee: You know it is not permissible in the constitution, right?
6 Apr 11, 16:26 dc reporter: Loved how Conboy said that UBC would inform Walsh "well in advance" of future restructuring a DAY after they blindsided the East Coast.
6 Apr 11, 16:26 Pat Nee: They would have too much to lose in a decision against them
6 Apr 11, 16:26 Bill Lebo: no reason to
6 Apr 11, 16:26 Bill Lebo: I don't think they will
6 Apr 11, 16:25 Pat Nee: The weird thing is that the UBC will not be able to argue against it.
6 Apr 11, 16:25 Bill Lebo: hope sp Pat
6 Apr 11, 16:25 Pat Nee: With mail , internet and in person voting, I think turnout should be good
6 Apr 11, 16:24 dc reporter: can't be the same 50 people all the time
6 Apr 11, 16:24 Bill Lebo: your 100% right dc
6 Apr 11, 16:24 dc reporter: I would like to see an organize effort to remind members of their responsibility to VOTE.
6 Apr 11, 16:23 Bill Lebo: That was what the whole policing the jobs thing was about
6 Apr 11, 16:23 Donny Arana: Im just learning this-the courthouse is a major tool for us.
6 Apr 11, 16:23 Pat Nee: Read Richards post full mobility vs 100% mobility
6 Apr 11, 16:22 Bill Lebo: the UBC will still try to sneak in full mobility
6 Apr 11, 16:22 Pat Nee: wow!!!!!!!!! just kick mccarron in the balls
6 Apr 11, 16:22 Pat Nee: I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6 Apr 11, 16:22 Bill Lebo: He is in favor of mail ins
6 Apr 11, 16:21 Bill Lebo: scheduling will be in the works by Walsh
6 Apr 11, 16:21 Pat Nee: You did, or at least by law you did
6 Apr 11, 16:20 Donny Arana: Negotiations should be suspended until elections.we did elect ballantyne ,spencer or mccarron to negotiate for us.
6 Apr 11, 16:20 Bill Lebo: elections are a done deal.
6 Apr 11, 16:20 Pat Nee: or which part of the case?
6 Apr 11, 16:20 Pat Nee: Which case?
6 Apr 11, 16:19 Bill Lebo: This case is already won Pat
6 Apr 11, 16:19 dc reporter: I think so too.
6 Apr 11, 16:19 Pat Nee: members need to believe in the union again.
6 Apr 11, 16:18 Pat Nee: I think there is an awful lot riding on this courtcase,
6 Apr 11, 16:18 dc reporter: I think so too.
6 Apr 11, 16:17 dc reporter: now, how about within the next five years? you think we can expect it to be somewhat the same?
6 Apr 11, 16:17 Pat Nee: I think Judge Berman has a good handle on things.
6 Apr 11, 16:16 Pat Nee: Anyhow, profits are down, contractors are bidding lower to try and get work
6 Apr 11, 16:15 Pat Nee: Good luck getting info during negotiations
6 Apr 11, 16:15 Pat Nee: I think we have a very insightful guy in Judge Berman,
6 Apr 11, 16:15 dc reporter: We know our hours are down? But how about some insight into the work and profits of the contractors? and future expectations of work in NYC?
6 Apr 11, 16:13 dc reporter: god
6 Apr 11, 16:13 dc reporter: thank good..... but when McGuire is foreshadowing cutting benefits. I would have loved to hear him speak on the subject.
6 Apr 11, 16:12 Pat Nee: The Judge did bring that up right at the outset
6 Apr 11, 16:12 dc reporter: One of my observations: Everyone is quick to speak about loss of market share,rise in costs, and obstacles to being competitiveness: how about the ECONOMY? cough
6 Apr 11, 16:10 Pat Nee: (cough)sister(cough)
6 Apr 11, 16:09 dc reporter: All the brothers should be thanked. The rank and file proved it has a PULSE!
6 Apr 11, 16:08 dc reporter: Brother Corrigan Points: 1. Same as others 2. Accepted responsibility for past wrong doing
6 Apr 11, 16:07 dc reporter: Brother Kealty Points: 1. Rank and File Rep in negotiation committee and as trustee? 2. International contracts need scrutiny (how will the scanning technology apply to these job?)
6 Apr 11, 16:07 Pat Nee: I mean they REALLY seem to want them
6 Apr 11, 16:06 Pat Nee: UBC really wants council employed delegates
6 Apr 11, 16:05 Pat Nee: Wellington surprised me, he presented some very good points
6 Apr 11, 16:04 Greg: Conboywas looking for a life preserver today.
6 Apr 11, 16:04 dc reporter: Brother Welington points: 1. UBC open forums till elections 2. Institutional support for shop stewards
6 Apr 11, 16:03 Pat Nee: In Conboys case, he seemed to be looking for options.
6 Apr 11, 16:03 Pat Nee: time frames, objectives , that kind of stuff
6 Apr 11, 16:03 Pat Nee: In Conboys case, he seemed to be looking for options. 6 Apr 11, 16:03 Pat Nee: time frames, objectives , that kind of stuff 6 Apr 11, 16:02 Pat Nee: Agendas were discussed 6 Apr 11, 16:02 dc reporter: Go back and read comments. 6 Apr 11, 16:01 R L: What exactly happend today at the courthouse 6 Apr 11, 16:01 dc reporter: have they seen how McCarron operates. He has to be piss today. 6 Apr 11, 16:01 Pat Nee: The root of mccarrons power 6 Apr 11, 16:01 dc reporter: grand standing 6 Apr 11, 16:00 dc reporter: like we are going to root out all corruption with these new powers, yet left out the CAUSE of why delegates have been so ineffective. Delegate employees 6 Apr 11, 16:00 Greg: smoke screen 6 Apr 11, 16:00 Pat Nee: Conboy tried to put forward some bull**** about putting some protections for council employees into the bylaws so that they would nor fear for their jobs 6 Apr 11, 15:59 dc reporter: No i think it was grand standing. 6 Apr 11, 15:58 Greg: It sounds like mcCarron wants to make the delegates so involved and have so much responsibility that it would have to be a full time job. Therefore I would think he would be taking those responsibilities from the EST, President and Vice president which doesn't make sence. 6 Apr 11, 15:58 Donny Arana: Got to go ,see you later. 6 Apr 11, 15:57 dc reporter: Re: Labor Management and school are not the same as DC. And therefore should be included with DC employees 6 Apr 11, 15:57 Donny Arana: GOOD DAY FOR THE RANK AND FILE MEMBERS>>>GOOD JOB BOYS YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! 6 Apr 11, 15:57 dc reporter: we know its not, he wants it to be classified i as such. 6 Apr 11, 15:55 Donny Arana: If you are a paid employee of DC,it is a conflict of interest.I think the judge and Walsh agree. 6 Apr 11, 15:55 dc reporter: he was asking the court 6 Apr 11, 15:55 Pat Nee: The council is a bona fide labor organisation. 6 Apr 11, 15:54 Pat Nee: lebo was not questioning whether the council was a labor organisation, he was making the point, (he can correct me if I am wrong) that the NYCDCC has taken over so many of the powers of the locals that they have become powerless shells and wants the council designated as a local within the meaning of the LMRDA 6 Apr 11, 15:54 Donny Arana: Its a no brainer. 6 Apr 11, 15:54 dc reporter: Q. How about Labor Management and School: should they waive their right to be delegates too? 6 Apr 11, 15:54 Donny Arana: Make no mistakes about it! 6 Apr 11, 15:53 dc reporter: Arana points: 1. Employees of DC cannot act as delegates. conflict of interest when they have two responsibilities. 6 Apr 11, 15:53 Donny Arana: Next biggest issue nyc delegates to dc that are paid employees or hand picked appointed delegates,this is the root of our problems. 6 Apr 11, 15:51 dc reporter: Right so far right??? 6 Apr 11, 15:51 Donny Arana: When economy was good I never heard that company was taken a beaten due to guys coming off the list.All the problems and corruption occured when the companys were able to request 100%. (full mobility) 6 Apr 11, 15:51 dc reporter: 2. Cut the red tape between impotent locals and DC. Wants the people making the decisions to accountable to members 6 Apr 11, 15:49 dc reporter: 1. Non NYCDC carpenters riding our OWL and while working in their areas. Wants 50% NYCDC carpenters on the job site 6 Apr 11, 15:48 dc reporter: Pat Nee Points: 6 Apr 11, 15:47 dc reporter: 3. We understand we have issues on the Union side, ex, unskilled workers being sent out and no one revokes that skill from OWL 6 Apr 11, 15:46 dc reporter: 2. REAL 50/50, ability to request has problems and open to corruption and unfair hiring practices 6 Apr 11, 15:45 Donny Arana: Just my opinion 6 Apr 11, 15:45 dc reporter: 1. Harrington vs Cho --- IS the NYCDC a labor organization? 6 Apr 11, 15:45 Donny Arana: Maybe conboy was a great judge, My opinion is he is not a tiger as a lawyer. 6 Apr 11, 15:43 dc reporter: Bill Lebo points: 6 Apr 11, 15:43 dude: Ubc not looking good 6 Apr 11, 15:43 Donny Arana: Good day for rank and file. 6 Apr 11, 15:43 dc reporter: 3. Investigate the potentially "false" allegations of Tom Reynolds. Ex-advisor shown the door. 6 Apr 11, 15:42 Pat Nee: Not saying I do not want to see them 6 Apr 11, 15:42 Pat Nee: I have a feeling that there is very little in Callahans Reports 6 Apr 11, 15:41 dc reporter: 2. Unseal Callahan Reports. We paid for them, we should be able to see them and find out why he "fell asleep at the wheel" 6 Apr 11, 15:40 dc reporter: 1. McCarron to sign Walh affidavit is he is to be "key" person in NYCDC contract negotiations 6 Apr 11, 15:38 Pat Nee: Gene was very good, I have to say 6 Apr 11, 15:38 dc reporter: Brother clarke made some very good points: 6 Apr 11, 15:38 TIRED: what about companies formen who exploit the brothers and are also delegates.are these delegate fully qualified to represent us? 6 Apr 11, 15:37 dude: He sure does 6 Apr 11, 15:36 nerd: All speakers did. But gene has his own special way... you hear! 6 Apr 11, 15:35 dude: Arana and clarke hammered them 6 Apr 11, 15:33 dc reporter: Walsh got a ringing endorsement from members, UBC got their ass handed to them. 6 Apr 11, 15:33 Pat Nee: I think council employee seems to be how it is referred to 6 Apr 11, 15:32 dc reporter: Q. How about Labor Management and School: should they waive their right to be delegates too? 6 Apr 11, 15:32 Pat Nee: I think that all in all it was a good day. 6 Apr 11, 15:31 dc reporter: I think walsh is on the ball with DC employees/delegate issue. 6 Apr 11, 15:31 dc reporter: LOTS of changes re: role and powers of DC delegates. But they missed the MOST important point. DC employees must waive their delegate right 6 Apr 11, 15:30 Pat Nee: Thanks to Walsh and the Association for Democracy Lawyers 6 Apr 11, 15:29 Pat Nee: They will now!!!!!!!!!!! 6 Apr 11, 15:29 dc reporter: The DC bylaws that has no rank and file input. 6 Apr 11, 15:28 Pat Nee: i felt sorry for th 6 Apr 11, 15:28 dc reporter: Conboy said, "Your Honor, patience is a virtue" and Judge said, "so is openness" 6 Apr 11, 15:28 Pat Nee: council bylaws 6 Apr 11, 15:27 Greg: It got applause fron the crowd too 6 Apr 11, 15:27 dc reporter: Torrence, US District Atty. supported an open discussion to take place to give members an opportunity to be heard. 6 Apr 11, 15:27 Screwball: By laws to what? 395? 6 Apr 11, 15:27 Pat Nee: Yeah, I really liked it when the Judge interjected that little comment on openness 6 Apr 11, 15:26 dc reporter: Next Court day May 16, 1pm. UBC has 30 days to present official BYLAWS to Walsh 6 Apr 11, 15:26 Screwball: Where do we go from here? 6 Apr 11, 15:26 Greg: I think Conboy was a bit suprised buy the turnout of the opposition and skirted alot of the issues in the begining of the proceeding 6 Apr 11, 15:26 Pat Nee: Gene made his points very well 6 Apr 11, 15:26 Screwball: Hey dc reporter. was anything settled today? 6 Apr 11, 15:25 dc reporter: Like Brother Clarke pointed out? Where the hell were they when we needed them in the last 12 years. Watched Forde destroy the council. 6 Apr 11, 15:25 Pat Nee: Yes, Conboy said that they want to bring up the 50/50 again before June 30 6 Apr 11, 15:24 dc reporter: NYC rank and File send a CLEAR MESSAGE to Judge Berman and UBC. We do not want the International/McCarron in NYC. 6 Apr 11, 15:23 Pat Nee: Enough was said I think for one session 6 Apr 11, 15:23 Watching the show: No suprises by the international? 6 Apr 11, 15:23 Greg: The judge kind of cut us off, he wanted to rap up the proceeding or I am sure others would have spoken. 6 Apr 11, 15:23 Pat Nee: A couple of interesting twists 6 Apr 11, 15:23 dc reporter: LOTS of info..... Walsh said it would what? 6 Apr 11, 15:22 Watching the show: Did it transpire as denis walsh said it would? No Shockers? 6 Apr 11, 15:21 dc reporter: McGongle did not speak but was present 6 Apr 11, 15:21 Watching the show: what abot Mcgongle? 6 Apr 11, 15:20 dc reporter: No one outdid anyone. Courtroom full with rank and file members. I don't know what local and no vice grips. I know Nee an Arana do not like each other, but both spoke well and for the members. 6 Apr 11, 15:19 Court: did nee bring vice grips????? 6 Apr 11, 15:19 Court: who is wellington? what local? 6 Apr 11, 15:17 listman: The Bubble Gum anaolgy ! 6 Apr 11, 15:17 dc reporter: Brother Bilillo, Clarke, Lebo, Nee, Arana, Wellington, Kelty, J. Corrigan all spoke. All spoke well and all made important points. Props to all. 6 Apr 11, 15:16 Court: i mean if he was sharing the spot light with gene......... 6 Apr 11, 15:16 Court: sorry, i did not mean it in a bad way, i am just so surprised that arana spoke so well 6 Apr 11, 15:15 Greg: No one out did anyone, we were all on the same page bring up the issues that affect the puesent and future of this council 6 Apr 11, 15:14 Court: was he convincing? what was his argument?? 6 Apr 11, 15:14 nerd: dc employees waive right to be delgates. 6 Apr 11, 15:12 Court: so arana out did bilello? 6 Apr 11, 15:11 Court: arana? what was his thing?? 6 Apr 11, 15:11 dude: Clarke and Arana main speakers 6 Apr 11, 15:09 Court: or franco or moose? 6 Apr 11, 15:09 Court: was levi there? he seems well spoken 6 Apr 11, 15:08 Court: six guys 6 Apr 11, 15:08 Court: apparently not, only five guys spoke, lebo, bilello,corrigan kelty, and arana and sorry wellington 6 Apr 11, 15:08 dude: His boy Arana did dude: His boy Arana did 6 Apr 11, 15:07 dude: 15 projected for this yr 6 Apr 11, 15:06 watching the show: did Gausman speak? He's a fairly articulate guy? 6 Apr 11, 15:05 Court: and the economy is improving?????? 6 Apr 11, 15:05 Court: I thought we had 17 or 18 million last year? 6 Apr 11, 15:04 dude: Projected hrs 15million 6 Apr 11, 15:02 Court: that is only what, 1,500,000 hours of contributions? 6 Apr 11, 15:01 Court: million 6 Apr 11, 15:01 Court: 15 milliom dollars? 6 Apr 11, 14:58 william davenport: hes saying in the next ten years or so we will be in big trouble if the man hrs dont go up. only 15 million projected this year 6 Apr 11, 14:57 william davenport: bad news from him about the funds 6 Apr 11, 14:57 william davenport: mcguire a lawyer to the funds also spoke 6 Apr 11, 14:57 william davenport: delegates to dc not being paid employees 6 Apr 11, 14:57 Court: local vs nycdcc???? 6 Apr 11, 14:56 william davenport: mergers 6 Apr 11, 14:56 william davenport: 50/50. the local vs the nydc,elections 6 Apr 11, 14:56 Court: 50/50 and elections? 6 Apr 11, 14:56 william davenport: pretty much they all covered the same things 6 Apr 11, 14:55 Court: so what concerns did they voice?? 6 Apr 11, 14:55 william davenport: i did not speak 6 Apr 11, 14:55 william davenport: i am in the cc4d and will voice my concerns to the lawyers and let them speak for me 6 Apr 11, 14:55 Court: william davenport: john corrigan spoke, greg kelty donny arana and calx wellington all spoke 6 Apr 11, 14:54 william davenport: maybe next time 6 Apr 11, 14:54 Court: ????? why not?????? 6 Apr 11, 14:54 william davenport: i did not 6 Apr 11, 14:54 Court: what did you speak about? 6 Apr 11, 14:53 william davenport: a day or two,i think is normal 6 Apr 11, 14:53 Court: when will the transcript be available? 6 Apr 11, 14:53 william davenport: 66/33 is staying at least 6 Apr 11, 14:53 william davenport: 50/50 maybe 6 Apr 11, 14:52 Court: likely/unlikely???? 6 Apr 11, 14:52 william davenport: it a contract provision 6 Apr 11, 14:52 william davenport: not yet 6 Apr 11, 14:52 Court: ok, 50/50 did we get it? 6 Apr 11, 14:52 william davenport: may 16 next court date 6 Apr 11, 14:51 william davenport: yes 6 Apr 11, 14:51 Court: so these guys are viewed as a threat by scumboy 6 Apr 11, 14:51 william davenport: the judge seems like a good and sound man 6 Apr 11, 14:51 william davenport: he objected 6 Apr 11, 14:50 william davenport: conboy did not want the cc4d lawyers in the loop 6 Apr 11, 14:50 Court: disdain????? how disdain???? 6 Apr 11, 14:50 william davenport: i cant type faster than your questions 6 Apr 11, 14:49 william davenport: larry asked for the right to have membership invovlement in the future hearing and was granted that right by the judge ,to the disdain of ubc lawyer conboy 6 Apr 11, 14:49 Court: spill it man 6 Apr 11, 14:49 Court: this is like pulling teeth 6 Apr 11, 14:49 Court: are they any good??? 6 Apr 11, 14:48 Court: about??????????? 6 Apr 11, 14:48 william davenport: yes and larry cary spoke to the judge 6 Apr 11, 14:47 william davenport: typo the right 6 Apr 11, 14:47 Court: were they at the court?? 6 Apr 11, 14:47 william davenport: the cc4democracy was granted thre right to view all court docs relating to these hearings 6 Apr 11, 14:46 Court: why did you say they were a no show? 6 Apr 11, 14:46 Court: huh?????? 6 Apr 11, 14:46 william davenport: they were sitting up front with all the lawyers and were recogized 6 Apr 11, 14:45 Court: all we have is bilellos lawyer? 6 Apr 11, 14:45 Court: so that is now dead? 6 Apr 11, 14:45 Court: what happened to the association for democracy? 6 Apr 11, 14:45 william davenport: they have agreed to settle out of court 6 Apr 11, 14:44 william davenport: someone asked that no more merging to be done until elections 6 Apr 11, 14:44 Court: after all the talk???????? 6 Apr 11, 14:44 Court: the democracy lawyers never showed????????? 6 Apr 11, 14:44 william davenport: the nj merge was brought up. 6 Apr 11, 14:43 william davenport: no assoc lawyers present 6 Apr 11, 14:43 william davenport: corrigan spoke on how they fired walter mack and confessed that he also was found guilty of playing games. he stated callahan to be inept and d walsh as being the man 6 Apr 11, 14:43 Court: how about the association lawyers? 6 Apr 11, 14:43 Court: anyone mention jersey or anything? 6 Apr 11, 14:42 Court: so the only thing discussed was the 50/50? 6 Apr 11, 14:41 william davenport: basically they all said the corruption flourished under the request system and would also under 100% mobility 6 Apr 11, 14:41 Court: corrigan????? 6 Apr 11, 14:41 Court: all about the 50/50? 6 Apr 11, 14:40 william davenport: john corrigan spoke, greg kelty donny arana and calx wellington all spoke 6 Apr 11, 14:40 Court: why did he say they should bring it back? 6 Apr 11, 14:39 william davenport: biello also asked for the 50/50 and also hit the nail on the head 6 Apr 11, 14:39 Court: what was his argument? 6 Apr 11, 14:39 william davenport: lebo spoke and did great asking for the 50/50 to be brought back 6 Apr 11, 14:39 Court: or you? 6 Apr 11, 14:39 Court: or bilello? 6 Apr 11, 14:38 william davenport: looks like we will have mid dec est elections. one member ,one vote 6 Apr 11, 14:38 Court: anyone else get to speak? what about lebo? 6 Apr 11, 14:37 william davenport: court is over. eugene clarke spoke and lite up the room.telling it like only gene can.he's a 52 year member and still cares. we have too many members who dont. long live eugene clarke. thanks gene. and thanks to all the rank and file carpenters who spoke even annon. Court: Anyone hear anything?